Mind and Rhythm: Daniel Fryer on Hypnotherapy & Nikki Giovanni on Hip Hop Poetry

Transcript & Show Notes: Daniel Fryer talks about the science and uses of hypnotherapy in mental health and well-being. Then, we remember poet Nikki Giovanni with a look-back.

Summary

This episode features a dual exploration of mind and rhythm. Daniel Fryer discusses his book *How to Cope with Almost Anything with Hypnotherapy*, offering practical tools for stress reduction, resilience building, and self-care through hypnotherapy.

Later, we revisit our 2009 conversation with poet Nikki Giovanni, who edited the acclaimed book and CD set *Hip Hop Speaks to Children*. Giovanni connects hip hop’s cadence to opera, African traditions, and jazz, underscoring poetry’s enduring power to educate and inspire.

Hip hop is the vernacular turned into art—it’s gossip, rhythm, and rebellion rolled into one. —Nikki Giovanni

Transcript

Daniel Fryer, welcome to Writer's Voice.
Thank you for having me.
This book is about hypnotherapy and I think a lot of people probably have some somewhat confused notions of what hypnotherapy is. So why don't you just start out by telling us what it is?
Yes, so I mean, very simplistically, hypnotherapy is therapy conducted in a state of hypnosis and there are different therapies for different things depending on what it is that you actually want to achieve. So you can have hypnotherapy for anxiety, you can have hypnotherapy for anger management or depression, you can have it for all forms of stress, you can have it for weight control, pain control, stopping smoking. The list goes on and on. The important thing, what differentiates it from mainstream therapy or coaching is that it's done in this state of hypnosis. And hypnosis means that you are in an altered state of consciousness. You are in a trance-like state.But that isn't as weird or as esoteric or even as scary as it sounds because human beings naturally drift in and out of these altered states of consciousness umpteen times a day.
Say more about that. How do they drift in and out?
So there's basically anything where you relax or anything where you focus intently becomes a trance like state.So if you are nodding off or daydreaming, if you're having a nap and you're kind of aware of what's going on around you, but at the same time you're semi asleep and dreaming at the same time, falling asleep, waking up, anything, when you zone out because you're bored or hot or just you've gone into a zone, that's all relaxed hypnosis.But as I said, anything when you focus intently. So losing yourself in a really good book if you like reading, losing yourself in a really good movie if you like movies, or a podcast if you like listening to things, focusing intently at work, we've all done it. We get our heads down, we think about 20 minutes has elapsed, but you look at the clock and it's more like two hours.So that is a state of trance very, very similar to hypnosis. Our minds like going there, they're drifting in and out of these states umpteen times a day.
So what makes those states so amenable to the outcomes that hypnotherapy works to achieve?
So when you are in a trance-like state, for reasons that science hasn't yet fully nailed down, we become very receptive to positive suggestions.And by a positive suggestion we mean something that you want.So in a trance-like state, a hypnotherapist will layer in these positive suggestions based on your therapeutic or coaching goals.You might want to increase your confidence, reduce your stress, increase your resilience. So we access these trance-like states, layer in these suggestions that your unconscious mind has become suggestible too. So that when you come out of this hypnotic trance, your kind of unconscious mind, the database of everything you are, has got new information in there about how you want to operate.
Yes. And in the book how to Cope with Almost Anything, with hypnotherapy, you actually go into the neurological, let's say, or even physiological. The brain based reasons for that was something very new to me. So I wondered if you could talk about that and also tell us, is that founded in some scientific studies?
Well, I say science very loosely. I mean, I touch upon the science.Science is yet to fully explain where our consciousness resides.Is it in our brain, Is it in our body, is it in our cells, is it external? Nobody really knows. So all we have are theories, theories, theories. Um, very, very simplistically. Um, there are two parts to the the mind. There is the conscious and the unconscious, but that's not a 50, 50 split.Often in psychology they compare the mind to an iceberg in the ocean. Um, it's a nice analogy. It's misattributed to Freud. He used it, he never come up with it. Um, but with any ICEBERG, there's roughly 10% above the waterline, you can see it and then there's 90% below. It's, it's hidden.Your conscious mind is the 10% above and your conscious mind is just responsible for short term memory information.So it's the bit of you that remembers that appointment that you have at 6pm, that phone number you only need to use once, picking up a quart of milk on the way home because somebody's asked you to, that kind of thing. It's also the logical, the rational and the analytical side of the equation.Your unconscious mind, the 90% below the waterline, is responsible for absolutely everything else, and I mean everything. Right now, as we talk, both of us, we are blinking and breathing. We are regulating our body temperatures, we're digesting food, a thousand other bodily processes that we don't consciously think of. Our unconscious mind takes care of it for us, but it's also the repository of everything we are. Everything we've ever witnessed and seen and felt and done. All our memories, all our learnings, all our skills, all our habits, both good and bad, are all stored in the unconscious.And the two bits of your mind are in constant communication all day long. The conscious mind is like a reader. It's forever dipping in and checking up on how to be you. What do I do there? How do I react to that? How do I feel about those things over there? Check, check, check, check, check.Accept. In trance, in a trance, that communication process gets bypassed.Conscious mind is still there and it will still be aware of everything going on around it. But it can't quite access the unconscious in the same way when it's left alone like that. That's when the unconscious mind becomes susceptible to those positive suggestions. So we're bypassing the conscious mind to layer in new information when you come out of that trance and the two parts of your mind communicate again, the conscious mind, being the reader bit, will just accept this new information. How do I react? More confident, how do I deal with that? More resilience? Okay, excellent. It goes with the new information.
You know, it reminds me, as you were speaking, of some of the therapeutic impacts of psychedelic drugs which also bypass the conscious mind kind of access or put the brain into a state which is more plastic, more able to accept different information.Do you think that there's an analogy?
Absolutely. I mean, I'm also going to pick up on that word you just used, plastic. So our brains are plastic, neuroplastic. They will change shape depending on the information that give it. So let's say that I have never picked up a musical instrument in my life, and I pick one up today.As I start to learn how to play it and learn how to play, read music, my brain will develop new neurons. It will change shape and form and function and become a more music Brain.Well, hypnotherapy also enhances or works with neuroplasticity. So it would take an anxious brain and help it to become a calm brain.But I mean, psilocybin is a psychedelic that just stimulates. I mean, neuroplasticity is neurogenesis. It's the growth of new hormones. Psychedelics open up neural pathways like never before. They stimulate the growth of new hormones like never before. But they also bring down barriers and they allow all bits of the brain to communicate in ways it doesn't normally communicate. And people who have accessed psychedelic therapy, whether it's been legally through like a scientific trial or on the QT through something like an ayahuasca ceremony, all say the same thing. Using psychedelics is like having 10 years of psychotherapy in one night.
Yeah. So let's talk about the effectiveness of hypnotherapy. Given that, yes, there are some, you know, there are some commonalities between the two or maybe even some of the same mechanisms at work.
Absolutely.So, I mean, hypnotherapy today is an evidence based practice, so science backs it up. Science can't fully explain how it works. They've got theories, and every single theory has elements of truth in it and also elements where they haven't got the evidence to back it up. They don't fully understand why psychedelics work. Yes, it puts you in an altered state of consciousness. Yes, it allows for a different state of awareness. Yes, it stimulates neurogenesis and. And it does. It works for those reasons. And more basically, to my mind anyway, we have a lot of conscious resistance to things in our lives. We are creatures of habit. We like being in a groove. We don't like getting out of that groove, whether it's a good groove or a bad groove. And our conscious mind resists. It gets in the way. It throws up doubts and blocks.Hypnotherapy bypasses that conscious resistance.It works with the unconscious in a completely different way. When you're relaxed and unfocused, when you're in a different state of awareness, and it just bypasses that conscious awareness and works in a very, very subtle but very, very profound way.
Give us an example, someone who came to you who may have been surprised by how effective hypnotherapy was.
I think most people who come to hypnotherapy are surprised by how effective it is. I mean, I mean, I've been using hypnotherapy for 20 years and I still get very, very surprised at the wonders it can bring about.I have helped people make complete and radical changes in their lives almost overnight sometimes.Francesca RheannonActually, I think you could use you as an example.Tell us about the first time you had hypnotherapy and the impact, impact it had on smoking.Daniel FryerOh, right. Well, I mean the first time I had it I didn't think it worked so I, I went to see I at the time I was a journalist and I was doing this big feature on stopping smoking for a health magazine and we were taking all sorts of people that wanted to quit and we were going to give them different methods, gum, nicotine patches, the Alan Carr book, acupuncture, hypnotherapy. And we were going to do the whole thing for a year and follow up at three month interviews to see who had stayed the course and who had fallen off the wagon.And I wanted to give up smoking myself. I was in my early 30s, I smoked about 10 a day if I wasn't drinking, God knows how many a day if I was out drinking and I wanted to stop. I had this interest in hypnotherapy and I saw the hypnotherapist, he put me in an entrance like state and gave me the suggestions and the whole way through the session I was sitting in a chair with my eyes closed and in my mind I was going, well this is a load of rubbish, I'm not hypnotized, I can open my eyes anytime I want. I can, I can, I can.But I didn't until I was asked to. And then I went off thinking, well, Rob's rubbish. I wasn't hypnotized, didn't work on me. Went down the pub stupidly to meet a bunch of friends. My first friend walked in and said, how was it? And I went, oh, it's a load of old rubbish. It didn't work. Get the beers in. Off he went. Then another friend turned up, said the same thing, how was it? Load of old rubbish. I said, get the beers in. And I spent all night drinking and telling various friends how it hadn't worked.Got ever so slightly drunk, crawling to work the next day with a hangover. And about 11 o'clock one of my colleagues asked me outside for a cigarette and I just went, oh God, no thank you, I can't be bothered. And then went, oh, oh my God. And the whole night replayed through my head and every time in the bar someone said, you want to go outside for a cigarette? I went, God, no thank you, I can't be bothered. Which is exactly what the hypnotherapist told me would happen.You can drink, he said, it will be fine. He said every time someone says, do you want to go outside for a cigarette? You will say you can't be bothered. You would rather stay inside where it's nice and warm and you can have conversations with your friends. And I stood there not even noticing that that's what was happening. Drinking the drinks and going, what a load of old rubbish hypnotherapy was. But I didn't have a single cigarette that night.
Or again, it's really a phenomenal story. But you also say that some people can't be hypnotized.Who are they? What kind of people?
Well, we. Yes. So 10% of people, ish, cannot be or shouldn't be, it might be a better word. So we don't hypnotize young children, say kind of like six and under because their minds are still developing. You don't want to go about muddling around with that.People who are, have got their addicts. So substance abuse problems. But we're talking like high end users. So, you know, four or five grams of coke a night, two, three bottles of vodka a night.I can't hypnotize you. Your brain is already too fried.You need to come down to a level of sobriety before we can do anything.People who are on heavy medication for very complex mental health issues. So we're talking about the more the psychosis end of the spectrum. Again, because of the medication they're on, they're already in an altered state of consciousness. The hypnotherapy isn't going to work. So we include all of those people, but also very, very simply people who think that hypnotherapy is a load of old rubbish. People who think they cannot be hypnotized.They're absolutely right. I can't hypnotize those people. I mean, it's very unlikely that somebody who would turn up for hypnotherapy and go, I don't believe in hypnotherapy, prove me wrong.But we don't try and hypnotize people who don't think that they can be hypnotized. They're right.It's not a battle of wills.So unless you're one of those people, unless you are, have got heavy substance abuse problems or you're on very strong medication for a psychotic illness, or whether you're a child under six, you're not in that 10%.
I think a lot of people, when they think of hypnosis, they think of the stage hypnotist.And, you know, they're concerned about whether they're going to lose control. People don't want to give up control. What would you say to them?
Absolutely. So that is a very complicated answer to that one.Stage hypnotism. Hypnosis for entertainment and hypnotherapy are very different. The altered state of consciousness is the same. But one is obviously hypnosis for entertainment purposes. The other one is for therapeutic processes. But they do have one thing in common, and that's agreement.I don't hypnotize you.You already know how to go into a hypnotic trance. Nodding off, daydreaming, losing yourself in a good book, all you do is allow me to help you drift into a trance there in the room at that point in time. For the purposes of therapy.If at any point I did anything that wasn't connected with either deepening the trance to an appropriate level or delivering suggestions based on your therapy goals, you would wake up.If I suddenly went, you want to bark like a dog? You want to cluck like a chicken? You'd wake up and go, what the hell are you doing? You are in control all the time.But it's the same agreement with the entertainment. So a stage hypnotist asks for volunteers. He doesn't pick on people and make them come up because it wouldn't work. He picks the people going, me, me, me, pick me. I want to be the entertainment. There's the agreement.
But some of those people may bark like a dog or cluck like a chicken or raise their arm on command. I've always wondered, is that for real? Because I think I can be hypnotized.I have. As I told you before this interview began, I actually studied hypnotherapy in college.But I don't think I would raise my arm exactly.
Again, this is what we mean by that word, that phrase, positive suggestions. A positive suggestion is something that you want, not something that you don't want.So if I'm in an audience and the hypnotist asks for a volunteer, then I put my hand up and he picks me. I've agreed. I want to be the entertainment. It doesn't matter what that skit will be. Maybe it is to bark like a dog. Maybe it is to cluck like a chicken. Maybe it's to eat an onion thinking it's an apple or whatever. I've agreed to it, so it will work.People who come to see me have agreed to the therapy for their anxiety or the therapy for their stress or the therapy for their anger management.So a hypnotist couldn't call you on stage and then deliver therapy suggestions because that's not what you agreed to. And a hypnotherapist couldn't call you up and get you to butt like a dog in a therapy room because it's not what you've agreed to.
So you mentioned stress.We here in the United States right now, I think some 70% of us are extremely worried about this upcoming election, and I know that I am. And so when you say almost anything, what are the kinds of stress we can't deal with?And how do we deal with the stress of things in a more serious vein, like an election where we may very possibly lose our democracy or climate change?
Very simply, I'd say you'd have to read my book on that one, but I understand where you're coming from. Yeah, the book's not just about hypnotherapy. It is, but there's also loads of stuff in there borrowed from the world of rational emotive behavior therapy, which is a form of cbt, positive psychology, compassion focused therapy, other tools and techniques as well.But the connective tissue through all those things are. Is acceptance.There's this thing called the Serenity Prayer.It's used a lot in 12 step programs. It's attributed to an American theologian called Reinhold Niebuhr, but I don't think he came up with it. If you do a little bit of digging, it was actually originally said by another theologian, a female, about 10 years earlier. But like most things in a patriarchal society, the lady said it, everyone ignored it, the man said it and went, oh, my God, that's amazing.
And what was her name?
Winnie something. I'd have to look up her full name. Winnifred. Her surname escapes me, but they usually put God at the front.But it could be God. It could be any God of your choice, any goddess of your choice. It could be the universe, it could be your higher self.Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.And really, if you want to learn how to cope with anything, you live life according to that motto.
Yes, it is a good one, kind of like the Golden Rule. Also, they're just ancient wisdom, relevant in all times.So you have instructions in this book, Daniel Fryer, in how to cope with almost anything, with hypnotherapy. For self hypnosis. So I wanted to ask you, does that really work? What is the difference between self hypnosis or going to somebody else too? Hypnotizing.
So if you come and see me for hypnotherapy, I help you to drift into a trance.I deliver the suggestions that I've worked in my head based along your therapy goals and then I will bring you out of trance.Self hypnosis is you doing that for yourself.So you bring yourself into a hypnotic trance, you deliver the therapeutic suggestions and then you bring yourself out of trance.Now there's an old school way of doing that and a new school way of doing that and the old school way of doing it is in your head silently. So you, you, you conduct your own hypnotherapy session. So you would close your eyes, silently, mentally help yourself drift down into a trance like state. And then silently and mentally deliver your therapeutic suggestions. And then when you're ready, silently, mentally bring yourself back to full waiting consciousness. It's like anything else in life, it's a skill. It takes practice to get good at it.And the more convenient, more modern way of doing it. We all have voice memo functions on our smartphones and our tablets so you can just record the whole thing yourself, bringing yourself into a trance, delivering the therapy, bringing yourself up, record it on your smartphone, put your headphones in, sit back in a chair and deliver it in your voice.
And do you feel like it can be just as effective?
Oh yes.I mean, so I first studied hypnotherapy 20 years ago. We were all taught self hypnosis. We all had to practice it on a regular basis and give an account of our experience of it all the way through the course.And then I carried that on as a form of self care and then I got lazy and I started recording my own and playing the back to me.So I've been using that as my own self care off and on for, you know, 20 years. So it works very, very well.
Well, it's really a terrific book. It's very engagingly written. I completely enjoyed it. How to cope with almost anything with hypnotherapy. Simple ideas to enhance your well being and resilience.Daniel Fryer, it's just been great to talk with you about this book.
Thank you. It's been great to talk to you as well.
Next up, we remember poet Nikki Giovanni who died on December 9th at the age of 81.
Welcome back to Writer's Voice. I'm Francesca Rheannon. Go to writersvoice.net to find more great content, including web only features like interview transcripts and extended interviews.Poet Nikki Giovanni died on Monday, December 9th.The New York Times reported on her passing, describing her as, quote, a charismatic and iconoclastic poet, activist, children's book author and professor who wrote irresistibly and sensuously about race, politics, gender, sex and love.We spoke with Nikki Giovanni way back in April 2009 for Poetry Month about the delightful book and CD set Hip Hop Speaks to Children.Let's listen to that conversation now.
Francesca RheannonApril is Poetry Month. With April almost over, it's about time we honor it. I suppose I could have taken a very serious highbrow approach and scheduled an interview about very serious highbrow poetry, something you might find in the pages of the New Yorker or an obscure poetry magazine.But when I found the book Hip Hop Speaks to Children in my mailbox here at the radio station, my heart lifted right up. The fact that it's edited by the wonderful and acclaimed poet Nikki Giovanni just made it even better.And the CD that came with the book meant that I could play some of the poetry featured in it for you.It's not just for kids. Hip Hop Poetry for Children, a celebration of poetry with a beat will delight grownups as well as kids. With tracks by Kanye West, Queen Latifah, and the inimitable Nikki Giovanni.Early in her career, she was dubbed the Princess of black poetry. And over the course of more than three decades as a writer, she's come to be called both a national treasure and, by Oprah Winfrey, a living legend. Nikki Giovanni, welcome to Writer's Voice.Nikki GiovanniThank you.
Now, in your book, Hip Hop Speaks to Children, you say right up front that as long as people have stories, there will be rhythm, Rap and hip hop. What do you mean by that?
Nikki GiovanniWell, people tell stories in a cadence, which is how we remember. You know, you think of nursery rhymes. I mean, the reason that they rhyme is so that we can remember.If it wouldn't be for the beat. You know, Jack and Jill went up the hill to get a pail of water. Jack fell down and broke his crown and Gil came after. If we didn't have a beat, we wouldn't remember it.And people have done that forever. So what I wanted to do was, you know, start to connect some of the dots in hip hop, in poetry, as it were, with a beat. And, of course, we rerolled it after opera, so I got a big kick out of that.
That's right. I was very surprised by it. You connect it in a direct line to opera. How does that work?
Because you have to remember, you know, opera is a classical art now, and it's considered actually a bit snobby. But at the beginning of opera, opera came in after the Romans had to quit. You know, the Colosseum was there, but they had to quit killing the Christians and. And, you know, getting the gladiators. All that's going to be gone because they finally realized Rome is 90% slave, 10% free. If we keep training these people, they're going to kill us. And so they needed to stop, but they still needed something to entertain the people. We have a connection. I mean, there's a history. I'm not a historian, but we have the connections going all the way over to Spain and the Moors, because the Moors, which you hear today, as you're listening in the Arab world to, for example, when an unfortunate thing like a bombing will occur and the women will go, eee.So you have a sort of a chant, and the Catholic Church is going to pick that up, because we know that the style of Europe, for example, is going to come out of the moorish experience of 400 years in Spain. And so the Catholic Church is going to pick up that chant, but they're going to do it. You know, I am not Catholic, so I can't give you a mess. But it's, you know, and, you know, it's in Latin, though, right? And Latin is the language of the educated people. Italian was the language of the people, of the everyday people, and it was a vernacular. So as we're getting this rhythm and these chants coming in, and we're trying to say, how are we going to evolve something we did? And I don't say that, you know, nine old men sat down and did it. But what happened was that we evolved a thing people always do, which is gossip. And we decided if we can make gossip, if we can connect these dots, we can make gossip the entertainment. And that's exactly what opera is, if you think about it. Whether Figaro, Figaro, Figaro or whether it's Aida. I mean, whatever it is, it's all of this gossip about who's doing what to whom. That's true, it is, except that, you know, it's in a language that most people don't understand. And so most people say, oh, that's high brass. But there's nothing highbrow about opera.
And in fact, it seems that in this book, hip hop speaks to children. There's a distinct democratic impulse behind hip hop that you're putting forward here.
Well, it is. But again, all origins are Democratic. In 100 years, 200 years from now, when we look back on with the hip hop, with the hip hip Pippy, with the hip hop hippity hop, everybody's going to say, you know, it's amazing. I mean, the critics will. How did they know? With the hip hop hippity hop. And they will, you know, explore the way that language was expressed. But right now we're just going like, yeah, with the hip hop hippity hop.[Audio Clip from Nikki Giovanni]What are you waiting for? To the hip hop the hippity to the hippie to hip hip hop Jump the boogie to the rhythm of the booger to be skittle to be bop we rock a Scooby Doo well, guess what, America, we love you because they rock and roll with us so much so you can rock me 101 years old I don't mean to brag I don't mean to boast but we like hot butter on a breakfast toast Rock it out a baby Bubba baby bub bubba to the boogie de bang bang the boogie to the beat Beat is so unique Come on, everybody and dance to the beat.
Now then you go, in this book, hip hop speaks to children. And you go into the roots of hip hop and slavery and the call and response. Could you talk a bit about that, too?
Oh, see, that's so important because again, opera itself didn't just transfer itself over to the United States, something like that. But going back to every people have a vernacular, and all vernacular has a rhythm. And as the slaves came, as the enslaved Africans, I should say, as the captured African were brought to this nation, one, they had to learn a new language. So they not only they didn't actually learn English. And, you know, people laugh at black Americans. You don't really speak English. Well, what they spoke was a vernacular. They had to find a way to talk to each other through various languages. So different words found their ways into the English language. Some like gumbo, we know. Or some like okra, we know. Some like peanut, we know. You know, there's some things that happen, but mostly the people are going to find a new language and it's a vernacular. And they're also going to discover another religion because they're going to discover Christianity. And Christianity is going to become, of course, the metaphor.So when they want to talk about things, if they want to talk about let's run. If they want to talk about freedom, they talk about the River Jordan. I mean, these are things that we, you know, we all know how that happened. But the preacher, as he is coming up, and now we're, you know, 50 to 100 years into slavery. But as the preacher is coming up, he's going to have to find a way to talk to his people, make a statement, and give them something that they can then repeat to each other and to themselves. If you look at James Weldon Johnson's God's Trombones, those seven sermons, and that's just what survived. Or we have that wonderful sermon, the Sun Do Move, that survived. But most of those sermons didn't survive. But the preacher had to put in a cadence. And so his cadence is going to be the cadence that we now know in the Holiness Church. And he's going to do that. And God stepped out on space and he looked around and he said, oh, I'm lonely. I think I'll make me a world. And so the people could repeat that because they're working. And God stepped down on space and he looked around. King, you see what I'm saying?
I do. That's wonderful. Now, also, there's another part, a detail about how this was used during slavery with what you call ham boning. You say this was connected to Denmark Vesey, the freed slave who planned a slave rebellion?
Oh, yeah. In 1732, Nvizi used the talking drum, which I've had the privilege of hearing when I was in Swaziland.They took the talking Drum. And they took the drum away because they knew that the drum was saying things that they didn't understand, that the masters did not understand. The same way we did with the Indians when they were going to take the smoke signals away, right? And Indians weren't allowed to do that. You know, you send a smoke signal up, they just kill you because they knew something was being said. Now, when Morse code comes along, everybody likes it. But the Morse code has been preceded by a whole bunch of things. You see what I'm saying?And so what we had. I don't mean it like I'm sorry, but see, what we had was. Now, the people don't have a drum.They don't have another way. They don't have an instrument that they had used to communicate with. So the people did what the people always do, because the people are ever inventive. And what they did was they realized I am a drum. And so they can beat on their chest. If I were with you, I could. They can beat on their chest. That's a hand bone, but so is snapping your fingers is a ham bone. So is that old head where you being. And you do that, you know, boom ba doom, boom, boom, boom. And the people found a way to get the rhythm. They also used their feet. And so, you know, they made a big deal out of which way you go in the circle. When you go in the circle, if you go counterclockwise, you're saying one thing, and if you go on clockwise, you're saying another. So the people became a drum.
And did this become a kind of game for children as well?
Oh, everything becomes a game for children ultimately, and I mean no disrespect on that, but what we do always is the kids. What was serious to us, what we were trying to do to survive. The kids imitate us and it begins to look like a children's game. But the children are learning something.
And, you know, I couldn't remember which one, which poem was it that illustrated the ham boning? Because I'd like to play that now.
Gwendolyn Brooks.
[Audio clip Gwendolyn Brooks] We real cool. We left school we learnt late we strike straight we sing sin we thin gin we jazz do we die soon we die soon.We die soon. We die soon. Yeah, Real cool.Real cool.
And is that also connected to scat and jazz?
Of course, because jazz is all about the feeling. And of course, Ella Fitzgerald is one of the great scat singers of all time. But Ella didn't know the words half the time. But then when you go back also, you know, if you go back to King Pleasure, go back beyond, even beyond that. What we had was music, but we didn't really have anything to say. And so what we did was we made up the sound. It's something we've been following all the time, though.
I love the connections that you make in this book, Hip hop speaks to children, and one of them you make to. When all the school cuts first went down and gym was being cut out, that hooked right into the hip hop renaissance. Kids started to breakdance.
They did. And of course, you know, breakdancing. And I've said it before, and I mean, it should be an Olympic sport, because if we can have synchronized swimming, which is nothing, to be an Olympic sport, that's just nothing. But the Rockettes, you know, break, the dancing is way harder.It is a competitive sport, as you know.It requires great skill, great concentration and an athletic body.And the kids do it, and so it's great. But they didn't have any other physical outlet. And again, you know, you have to. You just have to be so proud of black people. Because we are just ever inventive. So you take away something that's not like it's okay because it's not okay. But nobody's going to brood about it. The next generation going to say, okay, then what do we have? Let's deal with what we have. It's why we got scratching, breakdancing, you know, all of that came from a deprivation.
And also another deprivation. We can say, you know, something that women often hip hop is not seen as something in which women really play much of a role.
Yeah, but then you have really great women, and God love her, she's a great kid. Queen Latifah, who, you know, breakthrough. And of course, we have her in our book, too, with Ladies First. But I remember when the queen came along and she said, I want to be Queen Latifah. You know, I don't want to be somebody's girl. And I thought, good for Queen Latifah. You had, of course, ego tripping my poem, but you also had MC Light. So, you know, the women began to say, wait a minute, I have something to say here.
Well, let's listen a little bit to that Queen Latifah. How about that?
Oh, yeah.[clip from Queen Latifah]I break into a lyrical freestyle Grab the mic look at the crowd and see smiles because they see a woman standing up on her own Too sloppy slouching is something I won't do something that we can't flow stereotypes. They got to go. Imma mess around and flip the scene into revert with what? With a little touch of ladies first.
Nikki Giovanni: I just love that kid. She got robbed on Chicago, so she should have an Academy Award.Yeah, no kidding. Now talk a little bit about how hip hop has been kind of, you know, taken over by the music industry in a direction that was so anti women.
I think that, again, this is America, and anytime we can laugh at somebody or put somebody down, we do. And so as a group, you can't put black people down any. So, you know, you're looking for something that, of course, the gay community catches a lot of it. But also, the women have always. I mean, the blues was all about, you know, my woman is treating me oh, so mean, you know, and you have to go through all of that. I think it's regrettable because I think it's a throwback. And I think again. And one of the reasons I wanted very much to do this particular book is that I wanted to remind people that it's a public art. And I have to mention it because. And I'm not a negative person. I don't want to dwell there, but, you know, what Nelly did could not have been done in a public place. It could only have been done in a studio. Because swiping that credit card like that was a fantasy.If he had done that in public, everybody would say, what the hell is wrong with you? Nelly had a credit card, and he swiped it on a black woman's behind, you know, oh, yeah. And that was supposed to be clever. Of course, you know, the women protested. We all protested, the women at Spelman particularly, because Nelly wanted to go there, and they wouldn't allow. They would not allow him on campus, and they shouldn't have. But my point being, if they said hip hop, opera, the church, all of these things are public arts, and if he had done that in a public place, it would have been stopped. But he was allowed to do it because it was a fantasy taking place in the dark. We all know enough about just looking at the Obama administration, and we cheer for that young man. We all know that we have to have more transparency. We have to. People have to begin to see what it is coming from. Studio art is very different, as we all know, from live art. Those of us. And I am a big jazz fan, those of us who are jazz fans know you get a way better, better, better, better recording, better music. I don't know about the recording recordings probably got air and stuff in it. But you get way better music on a live record.If Errol Garner had done Concert by the Sea in the studio. Concert by the studio, nobody would listen to it.
So you're almost saying that it's kind of in that relationship. And you must experience that also as a poet, when you're reading your poetry.
Sure.
The relationship with a live audience, something different happens.
Oh, absolutely. I mean, there's no question about it. There's no question. And speaking of that young man who speaks so very well, when we think about the great Obama speeches, they were all public speeches. When he had to sit down, he did good. But it wasn't that give and take.
And we're talking with Nikki Giovanni about a wonderful book, Hip Hop Speaks to A Celebration of Poetry with a Beat, which she put together with Sourcebooks Press. And there are a number of your poems in there also, which we will get to. But before that, I want to. It seems like this is a good time to bring in a poem by James Berry called People Equal. I'm going to play it first and then I'd like you to comment on it.
[Clip from James Berry]People equal.Some people shoot up tall Some hardly leave the ground at all yet people equal, Equal.One voice is a sweet mango Another is a non sugar tomato yet people equal, Equal.Some people rush to the front Others hang back feeling they can't yet people equal, Equal.Hammer Some people you meet a wall Blow hard on others they fall yet people equal.Equal.One person will aim at a star for another a hilltop is too far yet people equal, Equal.Some people get on with their show Others never get on the go yet people equal, Equal.
I love that poem.
Oh, yes, this is charming. And of course, hearing his voice is so wonderful.
It is. And so tell us about this poem and tell us about the poet, James Berry.
Well, we loved it. And again, we're having a book here for children, and I think there's some obligation to teach. And again, you know, hip hop gets a bad reputation because they say it's a lot of negativity. But there is some obligation to remind people that tolerance isn't important. And we have several poems like this, Eloise Greenfield's poem, too. You know, I wrote a poem. Still got it. You know, we're trying to say to youngsters, you know, we are all the same, but we're different. And it's the concept that takes a minute. You know, he's going, well, how can we all be the same? Look at us. Yes, we're all the same. But we're different. But actually all life is deserving of its chance. That's why we. We have laws against, you know, beating your dog, or we have laws about how you can slaughter cattle or any number of things. You just, you really just have to recognize that each life is unique and precious and we're not going to keep everything. It's not going to stay alive. And things happen in life, accidents happen. But we do try to avoid deliberate craziness, deliberate meanness.
And talking about teaching, you have a wonderful poem which I will play, but I'd like to have you talk about it. It's a poem called Ego Tripping. There May Be a Reason why.
Yeah, that's probably my most famous poem.And it's been amazing to me that we have a whole nother generation that has fallen in love with that poem. And I'm so glad because for me, I just wanted to give something actually to little girls that has turned out. Which reminds me and everybody else that your reasons are not necessarily what other people's reasons are. Because the men like that poem. And I'm glad because they never exclude it.It's a loving, loving poem. But I wanted to say. I wanted the girls to be able to say, you know, you know how black women have that. Mm hmm.And I wanted them to have that. Hmm. You know, I'm important. You know, I come from someplace because so much of what we do is so male oriented and so it's not anti male. It's just that I wanted to do something pro the women. And so that's been wonderful.
[Clip]I was born in the Congo. I walked to the Fertile Crescent and built a sphinx. I designed a pyramid so tough that a star that only glows every 100 years falls into the center, giving divine, perfect light. I am bad.I sat on the throne drinking nectar with Allah. I got hot and sent an ice age to Europe to cool my thirst. My oldest daughter is Nefertiti. The tears from my birth pains created the Nile. I am a beautiful woman. I gazed on the forest and burned out the Sahara Desert With a packet of goat's meat and a change of clothes. I crossed it in two hours. I am a gazelle so swift, so swift you can't catch me. For a birthday present when he was three, I gave my son Hannibal an elephant. He gave me Rome for Mother's Day. My strength flows ever on. My son Noah built Newark and I stood proudly at the helm as we sailed on a soft summer day. I turned myself into myself and was Jesus. Men intoned My loving name. All praises, all praises I am the one who would save. I sowed diamonds in my backyard My bowels delayed the filings from my fingernails are semi precious jewels. On a trip north I caught a cold and blew my nose Giving oil to the Arab world. I am so hip even my errors are correct. I sailed west to reach east and had to round off the earth as I went. The hair from my head thinned and gold was laid across three continents. I am so perfect, so divine, so ethereal, so surreal I cannot comprehended except by my permission. I mean, I can fly like a bird in the sky.
What inspired you to, you know, when you wrote. When did you write this poem, by the way?
Oh, ‘68. It's an old poem, actually.
Okay, so you know, that ‘68. My goodness, there was an awful lot of things going on then. I remember that year very well.
Yeah, that was a great year. And I just wanted to, you know, first of all, that was a. It was a pejorative term. At one point people would say, oh, you know, so and so is just on an ego trip. And it was like, oh, you know, that person is not doing what they should do. And I thought, well, if you're on a trip, you know, ego was probably the best trip because it was also a period of drug use and stuff. And you know, Timothy Leary and all of them, they were taking trips, remember? Or you may not, but, you know, they were doing lsd. And everybody's like, oh, you know, we're going to take a trip on, well, cloud nine. You know, you had all of that. And I thought, no, let's just turn it in and let's look at ourselves.And I had a good time with that because in thinking about it, it turns out actually it's a creation poem. And I hadn't thought about that until I read a criticism of it a long time ago now. But somebody said this because I was thinking, you know, I wanted to say something to little girls. And so it seemed to me the only logical thing on earth is that women are essential to everything. You know, I never had, in other words, that problem of which comes first, the chicken or the egg. You know, I used to be a philosophy major. I ended up being a history major. But when I was a philosophy major, you know, you'd have these kind of questions, you know, which comes first, chicken or the egg? And quite obviously to need chicken, because egg is 50% chance rooster. And the universe cannot take a chance. The universe has to know how it's going to evolve. So it obviously, you know, it's going to be chicken. But then you think about everything that happened. It had to be a woman there first.First of all, you know, you had a mother. Even when you're talking about things like test tube babies and petri, you know, ditch babies, you still have to have the egg, and that has to be a female egg.
And isn't it true? I believe it is true that all embryos are female until a certain point where some differentiate.
Yeah, yeah. Everybody starts life as a female. I mean, that's something you can see. And, you know, you can look at your body, your husband's body, and you'll see it all started out this way. And so the anthropological question right now, which everybody's getting a big kick out of, is, why do men have nipples?Yeah, well, there's.We know why.
Because they started out as women.
Because they started out as women.
All right, well, you know, your last entry in the book, or the last track in the book, is actually not a poem, but it is a speech by Martin Luther King. The I have a Dream speech. Wonderful, wonderful, moving piece of eloquence.Why did you include it in a book on hip hop for children?
Because King, of course, had perfect cadence. And I mean, that's one of the reasons we remember Martin's speeches, is that you can sing it. Almost anything that King preached, you could score it. So he did underscore exactly what I'm saying about this movement. His life was led also in public. He was always in front.He had no curtain to step behind his life, the 13 years that we knew him. You know, it's so hard to realize we only knew King 13 years from when he was 26. He died, and he's 39. And in those 13 years, he was always out front, but he had this beat. I mean, Martin could probably.Coretta could call him and say, you know, Martin, I need, you know, eggs and bacon and toast. And he would say, eggs and bacon, toast.Yes, toast. I mean, he would. You know, because he just. And his. I just was at a program with Christine Ferris, his sister, and she's the only surviving member of the three. You know, AD Is dead. Has been dead also. And, you know, Christine sounds just like him. He's really funny. But he had this beat. And what I was hoping, because I am not a rapper, I'm just a poet, but what I was hoping was that if I would be crazy enough to try to show that this speech should be rapped, some of the rappers would take it up and really show you how it works out, you know. So it was just this was an idea that I hoped I could pass along because some things get to be sacred.And when things get to be sacred, they die in many respects. And one of the things that we keep Martin alive is that people have memorized that speech. People know it. And now it needs to go into Its second, as T.S. eliot would say, the second turning of the second stair. It needs another life. And not that it's dying, it's not, but it needs another life that the kids can say, you know. Yeah, well, what you said earlier, that the kids can begin to play with it.
That's wonderful.
Yeah.
Well, Nikki Giovanni, thanks so much for talking with here on Writer's Voice. This is a beautiful book and a beautiful book to listen to. Hip hop speaks to children. Thanks so much.
Oh, thank you. I'm really so proud of it. So thank you very much.